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	<title>Comments on: FlexMonkey brings unit testing to Flex user interface developers</title>
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	<link>http://flexmonkey.org/wordpress/2009/07/19/flexmonkey-brings-unit-testing-to-flex-user-interface-developers/</link>
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		<title>By: jonr</title>
		<link>http://flexmonkey.org/wordpress/2009/07/19/flexmonkey-brings-unit-testing-to-flex-user-interface-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-26</link>
		<dc:creator>jonr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 08:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flexmonkey.org/wordpress/?p=143#comment-26</guid>
		<description>Hi Guys,
Thanks for the comments!  

I don’t think we are completely throwing away the distinction between unit and functional testing, but we did step into religious ground for a purpose.  We certainly understand the differentiation the industry makes between these two activities, but generally believe that it is over emphasized - particularly in user interface development.  

Let’s look at two examples.  In the first, I am writing hibernate code to do a custom search or filter.  In the second, I am building a complex custom Flex component with a creative layout.  The first example lends itself perfectly to a classic unit test.  The second, however, is difficult to effectively test exclusively through a classic unit test.  Certainly parts of the component can be exercised this way, but it IS hard to achieve the same level of testing with a hand coded unit test, as one can with a pure unit test on the Hibernate code.

In our Flex consulting work, this reality has led us to break testing activities out into two major categories: Developer and QA.  We aren’t suggesting that all “developer testing” should be done through FlexMonkey.  However, we do believe that the majority of cases that a user interface developer encounters lend themselves toward more functional tools, such as FlexMonkey.  I can assure you that we believe that FlexUnit and Fluint are still essential tools for a Flex developer, whether the development work lends towards writing more classic unit tests or one is attempting to automate their test (FlexMonkey and non-FlexMonkey developed tests).

Anyhow, Let us know what you think the Monkey once you give it the “shakedown.”

- Jon ROse
Gorilla Logic, Inc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Guys,<br />
Thanks for the comments!  </p>
<p>I don’t think we are completely throwing away the distinction between unit and functional testing, but we did step into religious ground for a purpose.  We certainly understand the differentiation the industry makes between these two activities, but generally believe that it is over emphasized &#8211; particularly in user interface development.  </p>
<p>Let’s look at two examples.  In the first, I am writing hibernate code to do a custom search or filter.  In the second, I am building a complex custom Flex component with a creative layout.  The first example lends itself perfectly to a classic unit test.  The second, however, is difficult to effectively test exclusively through a classic unit test.  Certainly parts of the component can be exercised this way, but it IS hard to achieve the same level of testing with a hand coded unit test, as one can with a pure unit test on the Hibernate code.</p>
<p>In our Flex consulting work, this reality has led us to break testing activities out into two major categories: Developer and QA.  We aren’t suggesting that all “developer testing” should be done through FlexMonkey.  However, we do believe that the majority of cases that a user interface developer encounters lend themselves toward more functional tools, such as FlexMonkey.  I can assure you that we believe that FlexUnit and Fluint are still essential tools for a Flex developer, whether the development work lends towards writing more classic unit tests or one is attempting to automate their test (FlexMonkey and non-FlexMonkey developed tests).</p>
<p>Anyhow, Let us know what you think the Monkey once you give it the “shakedown.”</p>
<p>- Jon ROse<br />
Gorilla Logic, Inc.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Luebcke</title>
		<link>http://flexmonkey.org/wordpress/2009/07/19/flexmonkey-brings-unit-testing-to-flex-user-interface-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-25</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Luebcke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 05:30:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flexmonkey.org/wordpress/?p=143#comment-25</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m very excited about FlexMonkey--as a Flex consultant the lack of a good answer to the automated functional testing problem has been a recurrent problem--but I have to go with Michael on this one. There certainly is a grey area between unit and functional testing, but it&#039;s not all grey. For example, I often find myself writing code that transforms data structures (usually to and from remote services), and I write tests that tell me whether my transformations are working correctly. 

Further, I often find that I can test a great many more scenarios that I or other testers are likely to encounter when using the application (for example, I may be testing against an optional API that may rarely or never be used).

That kind of a test is clearly different than a test performed by interacting with the application via its interface. Another distinction is that a user interface-driven test script will rely on the application state, whereas the other kind (I&#039;m struggling to not use problematic terms) is typically isolated, often requiring fixtures to provide a snapshot of operational conditions, but not requiring that the application has actually been exercised via its interface to get it into the right state.

So perhaps &quot;unit&quot; and &quot;functional&quot; aren&#039;t good terms, but they are widely used, and it seems to me that there are clear cases where what would normally be considered a &quot;unit test&quot; is not something that FlexMonkey is designed to address.

All that aside, a big tip of the hat to you and your team, and I&#039;m looking forward to giving it a shakedown run in the next week or two.

Regards,
Chris Luebcke</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m very excited about FlexMonkey&#8211;as a Flex consultant the lack of a good answer to the automated functional testing problem has been a recurrent problem&#8211;but I have to go with Michael on this one. There certainly is a grey area between unit and functional testing, but it&#8217;s not all grey. For example, I often find myself writing code that transforms data structures (usually to and from remote services), and I write tests that tell me whether my transformations are working correctly. </p>
<p>Further, I often find that I can test a great many more scenarios that I or other testers are likely to encounter when using the application (for example, I may be testing against an optional API that may rarely or never be used).</p>
<p>That kind of a test is clearly different than a test performed by interacting with the application via its interface. Another distinction is that a user interface-driven test script will rely on the application state, whereas the other kind (I&#8217;m struggling to not use problematic terms) is typically isolated, often requiring fixtures to provide a snapshot of operational conditions, but not requiring that the application has actually been exercised via its interface to get it into the right state.</p>
<p>So perhaps &#8220;unit&#8221; and &#8220;functional&#8221; aren&#8217;t good terms, but they are widely used, and it seems to me that there are clear cases where what would normally be considered a &#8220;unit test&#8221; is not something that FlexMonkey is designed to address.</p>
<p>All that aside, a big tip of the hat to you and your team, and I&#8217;m looking forward to giving it a shakedown run in the next week or two.</p>
<p>Regards,<br />
Chris Luebcke</p>
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		<title>By: Stu Stern</title>
		<link>http://flexmonkey.org/wordpress/2009/07/19/flexmonkey-brings-unit-testing-to-flex-user-interface-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-24</link>
		<dc:creator>Stu Stern</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flexmonkey.org/wordpress/?p=143#comment-24</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&quot;#comment-22&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Michael Labriola&lt;/a&gt; 

Mike,


In the article, I deliberately chose to use the term &quot;unit&quot; to describe FlexMonkey testing, since I wanted to emphasize that FlexMonkey is a tool for developers as well as QA testers, and many developers bristle at any suggestion that they do any testing other than &quot;unit&quot;.

Having said that, and as I mention in the article, I do believe that &quot;developer&quot; testing and &quot;QA&quot; testing is a very real and useful distinction, but the distinction between &quot;functional&quot; and &quot;unit&quot; testing has always seemed to me to be more semantic than practical. Although tests can of course be categorized according to whether that which is being tested is &quot;developer-facing&quot; or &quot;user-facing&quot;, what is the substantive consequence of such a distinction? 

More specifically, what is the fundamental difference between a test that exercises an API, and one that exercises a UI? I routinely create test suites that combine both UI and API testing, and never find myself having to stop to consider whether a particular test is a &quot;unit&quot; or &quot;functional&quot; one. Again, what would be the substantive consequence of making such a distinction?

Thanks for your comment! I hope you will elaborate!

-Stu</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="#comment-22" rel="nofollow">@Michael Labriola</a> </p>
<p>Mike,</p>
<p>In the article, I deliberately chose to use the term &#8220;unit&#8221; to describe FlexMonkey testing, since I wanted to emphasize that FlexMonkey is a tool for developers as well as QA testers, and many developers bristle at any suggestion that they do any testing other than &#8220;unit&#8221;.</p>
<p>Having said that, and as I mention in the article, I do believe that &#8220;developer&#8221; testing and &#8220;QA&#8221; testing is a very real and useful distinction, but the distinction between &#8220;functional&#8221; and &#8220;unit&#8221; testing has always seemed to me to be more semantic than practical. Although tests can of course be categorized according to whether that which is being tested is &#8220;developer-facing&#8221; or &#8220;user-facing&#8221;, what is the substantive consequence of such a distinction? </p>
<p>More specifically, what is the fundamental difference between a test that exercises an API, and one that exercises a UI? I routinely create test suites that combine both UI and API testing, and never find myself having to stop to consider whether a particular test is a &#8220;unit&#8221; or &#8220;functional&#8221; one. Again, what would be the substantive consequence of making such a distinction?</p>
<p>Thanks for your comment! I hope you will elaborate!</p>
<p>-Stu</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Labriola</title>
		<link>http://flexmonkey.org/wordpress/2009/07/19/flexmonkey-brings-unit-testing-to-flex-user-interface-developers/comment-page-1/#comment-22</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Labriola</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:25:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://flexmonkey.org/wordpress/?p=143#comment-22</guid>
		<description>FlexMonkey is a great thing, but the title here is wrong. Flex Monkey is a functional testing tool, not a unit testing tool. Those are very different things and the confusion of the two lead a lot of developers down the wrong path.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FlexMonkey is a great thing, but the title here is wrong. Flex Monkey is a functional testing tool, not a unit testing tool. Those are very different things and the confusion of the two lead a lot of developers down the wrong path.</p>
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